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Episode Summary:
In this episode of In-House Counsel and HR Perspectives, host David Hall welcomes Tim Phillips, Chief Legal Officer at Habitat for Humanity International and General Counsel for the Navy SEALS Foundation. With a background that spans Naval Special Warfare, big law, and executive legal leadership at major nonprofits like the American Cancer Society, Tim shares a powerful narrative of service, strategy, and purpose.
Tim opens up about his early days as a Navy SEAL, how his experiences shaped his fearless approach to legal challenges, and why he believes in the Jeffersonian ideal of the “citizen lawyer.” From tax law to transformative nonprofit leadership, Tim discusses vendor negotiations, risk management, and building unified legal strategies for mission-driven organizations.
Whether you’re an in-house counsel, HR leader, or someone passionate about using your profession for good, this episode offers valuable insights into leadership, purpose, and the power of saying yes to the deep end.
Transcript:
David Hall
Hello and welcome to In-House Counsel and HR Perspectives. I’m your host, David Hall, Chief Administrative Officer at Hall Benefits Law. This podcast is dedicated to highlighting how in-house counsel and corporate leadership teams successfully collaborate to drive compliance, innovation, and mission success. Today I’m honored to welcome Tim Phillips, Chief Legal Officer at Habitat for Humanity.
Tim also serves as general counsel for the Navy SEALS Foundation, which provides critical support for warriors, veterans, and families of Naval Special Warfare.
Tim has an extensive background in legal leadership, having previously served as chief legal and risk officer for the American Cancer Society, where he successfully navigated legal complexities in a global nonprofit environment. His expertise spans risk management, compliance, and operational strategy, all within mission-driven organizations. And I might add, Tim himself is mission-driven. Tim also has experience working alongside Hall Benefits Law on some third-party administrator negotiations in previous roles and while he’s in a new position at Habitat for Humanity, his insights on vendor management, compliance, and legal strategy in the nonprofit sector remain invaluable. Tim, thank you so much for joining us today.
Tim Phillips
Of course David, it’s my pleasure to be here.
David Hall
So Tim, we’ll just jump right into the deep end. Share a little bit about yourself, anything personal that you’d like us to know and for the audience to know about you as we share insights into how you approach your role, your legal role in the organizations where you play a part. And then a little bit about your career journey and what led you to your current role as the Chief Legal Officer at Habitat for Humanity.
Tim Phillips
Of course, and I guess no pun intended about the deep end as far as my background, but you know, just a short story about how I learned to swim. My dad actually threw me in the deep end of a pool and I learned that it’s actually easier to stay afloat in the deeper end of the water, provided you don’t panic. And that served me well later in life.
He was definitely that kind of a person, just jumping into the deep water.
And I have tended to be that kind of person. I’m not afraid to get right into things. You know, by way of background in terms of the way my career has unfolded, I did start out in terms of my first profession in Naval Special Warfare, having graduated from the Naval Academy. That was the reason I went to the Naval Academy. I was, as we say, frontside focused on becoming a SEAL.
And I was fortunate enough to have that privilege and to serve an extraordinary group of men in a leadership role as a young man myself. While I was in service, I came across the bright idea that continuing my education in legal format would perhaps allow me to come back into government service, believe it or not.
And so that was why I went to law school, not to be a practitioner per se, but to actually return to service. Because as you mentioned, and I appreciate it, I am and have been throughout my life and my career now, service oriented. When I got to law school, which was at the University of Virginia, I really encountered this concept, if you will, of the citizen lawyer, which was sort of a Jeffersonian concept, that it’s almost incumbent upon us who are in this profession that we be citizens first and lawyers second, and that we utilize the skill sets and the talents that we obtain through this education that we are in fact blessed to receive to better serve our country, our countrymen, and the world at large. And that really is woven into the fabric of the University of Virginia School of Law. So taking that education into the professional environment, I joined a law firm which is now known as Troutman Pepper. And I came in as a tax associate.
And that was always the source of some questioning how someone who had a special warfare background ended up as a tax lawyer. But to me, it was just such an intriguing field because it was really about problem solving. And as a young tax associate, I encountered opportunities to serve the nonprofit clients of the firm. Particularly as it relates to their acquiring a tax exempt status. But what really got the juices flowing was when I got involved with development activities in affordable housing. And it’s been quite a journey to have had that experience as a young attorney and now to come full circle serving with Habitat in our mission to provide a world where everyone has a decent place to live. But that role gave me a ton of transactional experience working in a sophisticated landscape of tax-exempt financing with credits and bonds, but all for a purpose, which was that those who benefited from that work would have a decent place to live. So it was in that capacity that I sort of acquired my skill sets as a practitioner, but I was still missing the mission, all right? although I was able and quite privileged to be able and afforded the opportunity by the firm to participate in pro bono efforts, there was still something in me that wanted to do more. And so when the opportunity presented for me to join the American Cancer Society as counsel, I did so. And I started out as a senior staff attorney. In fact, the first project I took on had nothing to do with tax. But it was, as it turns out, the beginning of what Eye View is perhaps one of the society’s greatest assets, which is a large-scale research project, a surveillance research project that involves over 300,000 participants that contributing their data and by their data, that’s their blood and their DNA to be surveilled over the course of their lives. using that evidence, the American Cancer Society and its partners are able to better predict and determine what can prevent cancer. So it’s quite, it was quite a, you know, an amazing opportunity that I didn’t see at the time. All I knew was that, oh boy, I have jumped into the deep end because I have no idea what this is all about. But it was sort of an entry. From that point, of course, I progressed into a more leadership role with the department itself as becoming the general counsel. And in that endeavor, I was able to bring together what was a federated model of the American Cancer Society at the time into a unified charitable enterprise. So that was my debut as a general counsel. And from that point, risk management and enterprise scale was possible.
And so I was given yet another opportunity in leadership to lead that effort. And that is what resulted in my becoming the chief legal and risk officer for the American Cancer Society. And I held that role for about, I’m going to say five, no, I think it was maybe it was six years until again, another opportunity presented. And I am here with you now, in my new role, latest role, just a couple months into it as the Chief Legal Officer for Habitat for Humanity International.
David Hall
You have doubled the number of questions that I was going to ask you and I still can only ask you the same number of questions so I’m gonna have to cut some of my original questions. That’s a good problem to have as a podcast host. I can imagine some of the unique legal and compliance challenges that would have been a piece of that project that you mentioned previously, the surveilling of, you know, multiple hundreds of thousands of people over multiple years. I can imagine some unique challenges there. What are some other unique legal and compliance challenges that nonprofits in general face, you know, when you compare those types of risks to what you see in the corporate world?
Tim Phillips
Well, it’s an interesting question, David. I have to tell you there’s been countless times where, when I identify myself to people and, you know, my title and what I do, there’s, you know, the question of, why does a, you know, why did, why does the charity need a lawyer or legal department? And, you know, I have to laugh to myself, but then, you know, remind myself that this is an opportunity to educate.
And the fact of the matter is that a nonprofit is a corporation first, right? It’s a legal entity. And so that’s the large circle. And then you draw within that circle, concentric, that it is a nonprofit organization, which adds further complexity to how it’s operated and regulated. And then you draw within that circle, an even tighter one, that it is tax exempt.
And there are types of tax exempt organizations, not just those that are described within Section 501C3 of the tax code. But if you are, in fact, described within that section, you have even more restrictions and regulations that you have to comply with. you sort of draw these circles around. And by the time I’m having that conversation, people are like, now I get it. Yes, you obviously need to have legal counsel who has some material and substantive knowledge around what all these rules could mean for not just your operations, but your ability to affect your mission. So that’s been kind of a part and parcel of what I’ve done and what I’ve seen and been fortunate enough to contribute in as a leader in the sector is how do we benchmark our standards so that those who are within what I call the independent sector, and that’s how it’s known in certain circles, can operate with consistency and show those who would be inclined to contribute to us that we are, in effect, a good investment. I don’t view charity in its traditional sense as a handout, a gift, a contribution, I really view it as an investment. And why? Because people have options. There is, in fact, a charitable competitive marketplace. We’re all vying for that charitable dollar. And so I view it as my duty to ensure that the entity I represent is best positioned to make the argument as to why you contribute or invest your charitable dollar with us.
David Hall
Great take on charity in general because we are all making investments with our time, with our money, and where we choose to put our charitable dollars is an important decision. And you said that there’s a competitive marketplace out there, and I imagine, Tim, in today’s environment, that that environment is getting more competitive. Am I stating that accurately?
Tim Phillips
I would say a 100 % because it’s not just the number of charities that are out there, and there are many, but there are a number of causes that genuinely require the kind of support. And when you look at an environment where there’s a real potential, if not actual decline in the amount of support that say the government sector can provide becomes all the more compelling that a case be made for the investment in the independent sector because of the social good that it does as a combined whole.
David Hall
Interested, Tim, to hear a little bit more, speaking of your role there, internal at Habitat, how you, we’ve talked a little bit about the role of the legal department and how you can have an impact on the mission directly by helping to shape strategy around operational risk and things of that nature, not only the reality, but the optics to your potential customers, if you will, your investors, be good optics. But then internally, how do you, Tim, what’s your personal philosophy around collaborating with HR finance, other people in C-suite level roles at those organizations of which you’ve been a part. How do you collaborate with them to make sure that you’re able to do your job and that you’re all pulling in the same direction? And just for your knowledge, I think I mentioned this on one of our prep calls, the purpose of this podcast is to hopefully share insights with other people like yourself who may be in the audience.
Tim Phillips
Now, listen, that’s a great question, David. Thanks for asking. I would say, and this is consistent with the approach I’ve taken since, I would say my very first quote unquote audition to become a general counsel. And that was years ago with the American Cancer Society. And I said this to what was then the board of directors that I would ask that they view me as a mission partner. Yes, I have the title of legal counsel or general counsel or chief legal officer. But in my view, my role is to partner with the business units of the enterprise to ensure three things. And this is the strategy that I use with my team. One, that we support and sustain this mission.
Two, that we protect and guard the organization as it’s conducting that mission. And three, and this is the one that I think really gives us the advantage of being a collaborative partner, is that we enhance and enable our partners to do what it is they need to get done. And I would say that third one is a challenge for a lot of legal departments. I’ve had experience as a member and a participant of a legal function in the traditional law firm environment. And I’ve obviously been the recipient of those services. And what I say to my external counsel is that I do not view you as quote unquote outside counsel. Rather, I view you as external members of my team. And we support the mission. And if I can get your agreement to that. If we can be in lockstep with that approach, then we’re going to win. We will get to know our business so that our business wants us at the table. Not that legal is something you come to to check the box or to avoid because you think that they’re going to be the department of no. We are the department of yes and we may be the department of no but. And that’s a much different approach because it’s not always going to be yes. But I’ve told my team consistently, if the answer is no, please let it be no but. So that the business sees you as a partner. So that’s been my view and it’s been successful so far.
David Hall
Well, digging a little deeper into some of the crossover into HR that just happens as a matter of fact for people in your role, Tim, how do you prioritize going about your role now in a new organization for you?
When it comes to things like vendor partnerships, let’s look outside. You mentioned outside council and I appreciate that. Looking at outside council as an extension of the team so that the mission is shared. Is that a mindset that you carry when you look at other vendors as well?
Tim Phillips
Yeah, you know, it’s interesting. We talk about this partnership approach. That relationship between legal and HR within the organization, I see as you’re almost in lockstep. There are so many sensitive matters that come up, as you know, that lie within this sort of intersection of legal and HR.
And how it is that you’re managing your people, right? That’s the engine of any organization, right? So what is HR doing with its external partners? And how is it that legal is assisting them in those relationships? And what I would say here, David, is that context matters. And while it is true that you can have an extremely acute capability to go through agreements, adjust clauses and provisions to ensure you eliminate or reduce down to a tolerable level with the legal risks are within that arrangement. How do you know what others may be doing that are in similarly situated circumstances, if that makes sense? All right. So when you look at these vendor arrangements, I think the the tendency or the what you may find as normal is you look at it from your perspective and the vendors perspective and it’s this you know, by party or bilateral arrangement. But you know that vendor has other relationships. And so how can you pull the lens out enough to understand well, what is considered market? What else is happening outside of the context of this specific arrangement so that you know you’re getting the best deal possible. Now I put my charity hat on my charitable organization whose dollars are precious and then my fiduciary duty is viewed appropriately as higher because these are donor dollars that we are utilizing. We do have to run the business so to speak but we must do so in the most cost effective manner. So I would say even more so for us, it is really helpful if we can gain context around what these vendor arrangements look like, if that makes sense. And that means we have to go to external resources, could be law firms, to say, what are your other clients seeing in this space? Because I feel like I’m making a good deal here, but I don’t know if we’ve right come into this with the best bargain for the organization.
David Hall
Well, and you, may have institutional knowledge from a prior relationship or five, right, as a general counsel at whatever point in your career you may be, but the law firm or the team that you’re associating yourself with may have worked through, you know, a hundred of these questions, right? And they bring that institutional knowledge to the conversation, which greatly enhances your ability to get that real answer that I think you’re digging for, right? And so I think you put that very nicely in words that are easy to understand and it’s something that our team often tries to convey and it’s difficult to convey that concept of gradually increasing our institutional knowledge and being able to truly help every relationship gradually that we have be that much better than the one before, right?
Tim Phillips
Yeah, well, I could say this with a degree of confidence. I expect it from my partners because this is why, you know, if I’m spending money beyond what I’m already spending on the council who work for my organization, right, my team, then I’ve got to show value from that, right? Sometimes it’s apparent as to why you would need an external advisor in a particular matter because of the subject matter expertise. the risk associated with the decision attended to that. But when you’re bringing in someone almost in a consultative role, it’s what value am I gaining from that? And the value in part is this partner brings this institutional knowledge that we lack. They have a wide variety of experience and other clients who are seeing similar things and it’s a great way for us to benchmark against that and to understand we can actually pull a lever that we didn’t know existed. And when that results in real dollars saved. You know, I’ll take that all day.
David Hall
You mentioned the b-word, benchmark. Which we love around here. And I think it’s important for other people out there listening who are in roles like Tim’s roles that are span into the HR space and even the vendor space to keep in mind how critical that is. And there are areas, Tim, like you said, where there’s a bit of a black box and there are vendors out there who are attacking that black box and they’re taking the fight right to those who are preventing planned sponsors like American Cancer Society or Habitat for Humanity from experiencing what they should as a fiduciary and giving them access to the ability to actually have a conversation about how much they’re spending and then, you know, hopefully putting those dollars to work somewhere else in the organization. So you’ve answered so many of my questions, Tim.
One other last question then I would like to give you the opportunity to tell our audience a little bit more about the SEALS group because I think that’s important that people know about that. But tell me a little bit more last question relative to your role. What is your strategy as AGC, as the head of legal at a nonprofit to stay ahead of evolving legal trends. These could be compliance trends relative to benefits plans, but it could be any number of things. And I imagine the benefits aren’t the thing that keeps you up at night necessarily most of the time. So how do you stay ahead of trends? Do you have news outlets that you keep an eye on? Do you have industry specific rags that you have on your desk when you get to the office in the morning? I’m curious how you go about that because there’s just so much to keep up with.
Tim Phillips
So the answer is yes and yes. And the one thing I don’t do is allow myself to believe that I will ever know it all.
It seems like the more I learn, the less I know. But I do subscribe. And what I’ve learned, and it’s so interesting to have this conversation with you now at this point in my career, that because I can look back and think, gosh, if I had done that then maybe things could have turned out different in a particular situation. But I am staying in tune with what events and circumstances could impact the business I serve.
So I have to look to that. What are the business? What’s on the top of mind with the business? we’re a housing enterprise, Our mission is very focused on housing and shelter. And we are global, right? We’re over 1,000 affiliates in the United States alone, and we have 70 branches and or national organizations overseas currently operating to advance our vision to create a world where everyone has a decent place to live. And that takes a variety of forms. And we are not just your grandfather’s habitat, as one might say. It’s a very complex organization and it’s exciting to be a part of it, particularly at this time in our history. So I have to stay in front of those trends. So getting news feeds, but also from a legal perspective, I have to participate in forum and other types of accessible venues, digest, so that I know where not just the law is advancing, but where the business of law is advancing. And what do I mean by that? How are you managing the department? How are you ensuring that you’re staying at or in front of technology advances in legal management, legal department management? All of those things matter.
But I will tell you some of the best advice I’m receiving today. And I’m not giving a plug for any particular publication, but there is a certain business review out there that puts out management tips of the day. And it’s just a resource. What I do is I delegate. I take the view that my job or a big part of it is ensuring that there is someone or someone’s developed to succeed me. None of us knows what day, you know, the ticket will get pulled. And so we, you know, as a general counsel or someone who is in a leadership position that we hold, it’s your job to ensure their succession in place. I spend time ensuring that that is happening at other leadership levels within my department. I’m fortunate enough to have a team that I lead. So that’s answer to that question. And I think you mentioned you might want to pivot to my service to the Navy SEAL Foundation.
David Hall
Yes, if that’d be okay, we could wrap up with that. I think it’s good opportunity, Tim, for you just to share who that group is, what they do, and shoot.
Tim Phillips
Well, love to. Sure, yeah. Well, it’s timely. We’re actually on the eve, if you will. There’s an event in May to recognize the now 20 years of existence for what is now known as the Navy Seal Foundation. So 2005 there was an extraordinary loss in our community and a need to create an organization that could raise and direct funds toward tragedy assistance and other Naval Special Warfare community support. So the Navy Seal Foundation was born out of tragedy and leans into the mission of making sure that our community is resilient, can stay focused and resolute on what it is that our men and women are trained and prepared to do. And in particular, to ensure that those who go downrange, as we say, know without a doubt that their families are supported. So we have their back because they have to stay focused on the mission. So we’re really what I would call a benevolent support activity. We’re very fortunate to have quite a bit of patriotic support for our mission.
And for me, it is my way of staying connected to the community, of which I don’t feel like I’ve ever left. You know, they say you can take the boy out of the Navy, but you can never take the Navy out of the boy. And what a gift for me to be able to give of my time, my talent into a community that.
I care so much about and that I owe so much to in terms of who I am.
David Hall
Well, on that note, Tim, grateful for your service, grateful for how generous you’ve been with your time. It’s been a fantastic conversation.
Thank you, Tim, for sharing your insights on legal leadership in the nonprofit sector, vendor management, compliance strategies. Your experience with negotiating with vendors and nonprofit governance is incredibly valuable, and I know our listeners will gain a lot from your perspective. I’d also like to take just a moment to thank our sponsor Hall Benefits Law for making this podcast possible.
For those of you tuning in today, be sure to join us next time when we’ll be discussing another exciting topic relating to how HR and legal departments and other vendors and plan sponsors work together to make the world a better place. So to all the in-house counsel, HR professionals and nonprofit leaders listening, remember, effective legal strategy isn’t just about compliance, it’s about supporting your organization’s mission. Thanks for joining us on in-house counsel and HR perspectives. See you next time.
Hall Benefits Law, LLC
